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tell me about that first meeting. >> we met in zambia where anc were meeting. my colleague who passed away a couple months ago was leading the delegation. i got there, i've gone all over the country saying free mandela, free south africa, never met nelson mandela. ipo in this line, suddenly, there he am. then mr. mandela i'd like you to meet the congressman from california. he does this double take and hit me with a moment i will never forget. we have heard much from you. you gave us hope. you kept us alive. he hugged me and i broke down and cried. >> congresswoman waters can you remember what he said? >> we had been working to break down apartheid, there when it was lifted anc was thought of as terrorist organization. i met others, on and on and on but i really wanted to meet nelson mandela, didn't get a chance to do it until he came to los angeles. as you know we organized another huge event to welcome him to this country. we filled up the coliseum, lit candles. all of the movie stars in hollywood showed up. all of the community showed up all over southern ca
tell me about that first meeting. >> we met in zambia where anc were meeting. my colleague who passed away a couple months ago was leading the delegation. i got there, i've gone all over the country saying free mandela, free south africa, never met nelson mandela. ipo in this line, suddenly, there he am. then mr. mandela i'd like you to meet the congressman from california. he does this double take and hit me with a moment i will never forget. we have heard much from you. you gave us...
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a terrorist group, from margaret thatcher considered the anc a terrorist group and nelson mandela a terrorist. and this is the '80s. there was a lot of resistance to the idea of the government should fall, much less that this die vestment should take place at all. >> this was in the context of the cold war. and one of the most insidious things that the apartheid south african government did was they couched their oppression in terms of the communist struggle, that essentially the anc was riddled through with communists and pro-cubans. when nelson mandela was freed and made this tour. when he got to miami, he was actually rejected by the local government in miami, two mayors of miami and miami dade would not receive mandela because he was perceived as being pro-castro. so there was this whole sort of cold war fight that was tied up in the south african struggle. and it was part of the reason that the reagan administration opposed the idea of sanctions and divestment from south africa. >> please stay with us. >>> coming up, we will look at the presidency of nelson mandela and how he m
a terrorist group, from margaret thatcher considered the anc a terrorist group and nelson mandela a terrorist. and this is the '80s. there was a lot of resistance to the idea of the government should fall, much less that this die vestment should take place at all. >> this was in the context of the cold war. and one of the most insidious things that the apartheid south african government did was they couched their oppression in terms of the communist struggle, that essentially the anc was...
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and he was the founder of anc. and nelson mandela's predecessor. so our movements go way back, almost 75 years together. >> hold one minute, ambassador young. i'm going to ask you to hold one minute. thank you charlene, i'm going to let you go. and i'm going to hold ambassador young. because joining us live from right outside of mandela's house in johannesburg, south africa, is nbc's ruhit kutru who's outside of the mandela home in south africa. what can you tell us is going on outside? >> reporter: well, al, there is an incredible crowd here. a gathering of perhaps a hundred people of all ages of black and white. a true representation of south africa. one interesting observation is perhaps how young this crowd is. i would estimate two-thirds of people who are less than 25 years old. people who have no memory of the darkest days of apartheid. but such is mandela's legacy that he means exactly the same thing to the young teenagers who are gathering here with flames singing songs from the history boo books, songs from the struggle to older people tha
and he was the founder of anc. and nelson mandela's predecessor. so our movements go way back, almost 75 years together. >> hold one minute, ambassador young. i'm going to ask you to hold one minute. thank you charlene, i'm going to let you go. and i'm going to hold ambassador young. because joining us live from right outside of mandela's house in johannesburg, south africa, is nbc's ruhit kutru who's outside of the mandela home in south africa. what can you tell us is going on outside?...
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he embodied the anc's approach, their principles. but he wasn't the only one. during my time in south africa, especially in the late '80s, when apartheid still existed, i met any number of south african, leaders, rank and pile, who had been through terrible injustice. fellow graduates of robin island, for example. people who had been tortured or under banning orders. and almost to a person i heard similar words from them that we heard from nelson mandela after he was released from prison. and in many ways my love for south africa and my inspiration from south africans came from those years when mandela was still in prison, when we didn't even know what he looked like because there was only one old picture. he was the leader. he was the "avatar" of the movement. but there's much, much more, and he was standing on a firm base, firm foundation. >> you know, it's been surprising, mark, you know, on the one handle, this effort to sanitize mandela that we're seeing now, you know, i'm trying to make this kind of play around king, and yet also -- and this is maybe even
he embodied the anc's approach, their principles. but he wasn't the only one. during my time in south africa, especially in the late '80s, when apartheid still existed, i met any number of south african, leaders, rank and pile, who had been through terrible injustice. fellow graduates of robin island, for example. people who had been tortured or under banning orders. and almost to a person i heard similar words from them that we heard from nelson mandela after he was released from prison. and...
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with him no longer as the spiritual leader of the anc. at least no longer on this earth. what is that going to do to politics going forward? >> when he walked away and said don't call me, i'll call you, he left politics. so for a number of years now, he has not been on the scene. i think to a certain extent, that's unfortunate. i think that this young democracy is having some missteps. >> it does feel that way. >> a few stumbles. it's difficult because mandela has not been there to way in. maybe at this moment when people are not on the streets, but contemplating what mandela stood for, they might come to a better moment than they are in currently. >> put into perspective, that was an amazing three or four-year period in history. when you look back, it's stunning and like how did we lose the momentum? we were almost there. >> it takes -- you did have prague and the berlin wall and the leaders who were able to have a vision. bush 41 had a vision in terms of german reunionification. there were leaders in different parts of the world. >> who seize the moment. >>a i new econo
with him no longer as the spiritual leader of the anc. at least no longer on this earth. what is that going to do to politics going forward? >> when he walked away and said don't call me, i'll call you, he left politics. so for a number of years now, he has not been on the scene. i think to a certain extent, that's unfortunate. i think that this young democracy is having some missteps. >> it does feel that way. >> a few stumbles. it's difficult because mandela has not been...
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it is not that nelson mandela and the anc believed in violence. it is a people against whom the government was waging war took the action of self-defense. that's an internationally recognized strategy -- >> they took responsibility for violent acts. maybe we should put it that way. >> that's not what you said initially and it's really dangerous to keep perpetuating this articulation. nobody ever declared de clerk a terrorist. that's not what happened. what they did was to label the response to the violence. and that is dangerous because it's arguing and it's saying that mandela who by the way never renounced violence -- in the 27 years he was in jail, they said to him, renounce violence and we will free you and he said, i will not because that manifesto said, we have two choices, submit or die. and they said, we will never submit. >> we're going to take a quick break. when we come back, minimum wage workers in more than 100 cities protested and demanded a livable salary. but is raising pay the best way to really combat poverty in this country? the
it is not that nelson mandela and the anc believed in violence. it is a people against whom the government was waging war took the action of self-defense. that's an internationally recognized strategy -- >> they took responsibility for violent acts. maybe we should put it that way. >> that's not what you said initially and it's really dangerous to keep perpetuating this articulation. nobody ever declared de clerk a terrorist. that's not what happened. what they did was to label the...
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the rest of the anc, we think they are terrorists. it wasn't until 2008 that congress passed and president george w. bush, not his father, it wasn't until five years ago the u.s. government got around to signing legislation that he didn't need a waiver t.anc that governs south africa and has done so for two decades the designation of the anc as a terrorist group by the united states is a reminder sometimes our government, our political leaders, sometimes they get important things wrong. they get hugely important things very wrong. our country from the president to the mr. president, every day citizens right now our country is mourning the loss of mandela, remembering the life he lived the way he changed the world. our country in the western world wasn't always this united in viewing mandela as a hero. a part tied, apartness in the africano language, they were voted into office in south africa in then 48. they set about passing a series of impressive laws of racial segregation. they western considered citizens. in 1960 when drarts went
the rest of the anc, we think they are terrorists. it wasn't until 2008 that congress passed and president george w. bush, not his father, it wasn't until five years ago the u.s. government got around to signing legislation that he didn't need a waiver t.anc that governs south africa and has done so for two decades the designation of the anc as a terrorist group by the united states is a reminder sometimes our government, our political leaders, sometimes they get important things wrong. they...
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you don't vote on a president, anc won, you vote on a party. we were in a hotel in a gathering with mr. mandela. i'll never forget, he said you cannot be afraid to grow and evolve. you have got to be willing to continue to grow, if you're going to be effective, and he grew. you've got to remember there were a lot of nationalist groups that said he had turned soft, sold out. there were a lot of different tensions there. he was able to withstand the hatred and opposition of the african, a whites and he was focused on democracy. >> he was incredibly tenacious in that he had the question of black nationalism versus the question of integration. eugene, you have a great piece and i'll read an exert of it today. we should remember not only the man who embraced his former enemies but also the man who refused to be bowed by those enemies, who remained militant despite 27 years of imprisonment who walked out of jail with his head held high and eyes toward the future. >> we think of nelson mandela and see that smile that's like sunshine. it just lights up
you don't vote on a president, anc won, you vote on a party. we were in a hotel in a gathering with mr. mandela. i'll never forget, he said you cannot be afraid to grow and evolve. you have got to be willing to continue to grow, if you're going to be effective, and he grew. you've got to remember there were a lot of nationalist groups that said he had turned soft, sold out. there were a lot of different tensions there. he was able to withstand the hatred and opposition of the african, a whites...
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some of the black opponents of anc fought on. one of the first stories i covered was in the anc township where it's zulu warriors from a hostile that marched in the dead of night and slaughtered 40 people women and children among them. so, you know, it was not a simple matter of de klerk deciding to negotiate and everything got easy. you know, white bitter enders assassinated the head of the communist party, one of the most promising young black leaders around that time. a bunch of kind of resistance types tried to storm one of the african so-called homelands. so there were people who tried to keep the fight going. but the balance just had had shift sod dramatically that, you know, de klerk was a realist. and they desperately needed a realist on the other side of the table. >> mr. delms, when i was talking about nelson mandela right before he was officially elected, he gave a lot of credit to the united states. i thought he was being very generous in saying our country was the most -- enemy of the world. do you think united state
some of the black opponents of anc fought on. one of the first stories i covered was in the anc township where it's zulu warriors from a hostile that marched in the dead of night and slaughtered 40 people women and children among them. so, you know, it was not a simple matter of de klerk deciding to negotiate and everything got easy. you know, white bitter enders assassinated the head of the communist party, one of the most promising young black leaders around that time. a bunch of kind of...
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sort of knee-jerk reaction against any sort of antiestablishmentarian action such as that taken by the anc, but if you're going to put nelson mandela in that terrorist category, you'd have to put george washington there for rebelling against the british in the name of freedom. i mean, that's -- >> gene, suppose there was a country where blacks held the whites in servitude, made them carry passbooks, wouldn't allow them to do anything. do you think somebody might be looking to their second amendment rights to try to change this? >> yeah. >> familiar. >> it sounds like it's a different standard, like this woman out in nevada -- "i might have to use my second amendment rights." suppose the president was from another tribal group or a different racial ethnic group and you had no rights. do you think you might resort to those second amendment? the idea of saying he resorted to violence is like saying george washington resorted to violence. >> exactly, exactly, exactly. that's the parallel that comes to mind. and look, you know, nelson mandela and his memory will live on aeons, centuries beyond
sort of knee-jerk reaction against any sort of antiestablishmentarian action such as that taken by the anc, but if you're going to put nelson mandela in that terrorist category, you'd have to put george washington there for rebelling against the british in the name of freedom. i mean, that's -- >> gene, suppose there was a country where blacks held the whites in servitude, made them carry passbooks, wouldn't allow them to do anything. do you think somebody might be looking to their second...
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not that many foreign leaders spoke, but a tribute to, in the castro case, the fact cuba did support anc and mandela, supported him in jail when ronald reagan did not. how is that viewed behind the scenes? very carefully or something that causes anxiety attacks in the white house and create political problems also? >> given the array of challenges that the president faces on a daily basis, i think this is low down on the anxiety scale. the truth of the matter is, i heard your conversation with gene robinson, i think you guys were quite right. it would have been odd if he had done anything other than shake castro's hand. he's always been of a mind, the president has been of a mind these things are less important than the substantive discussions behind them. i wasn't surprised he offered the handshake and i wasn't surprised that got everybody in a frenzy. >> so we will relax over that. it was noted. dull not dully noted. thank you for your perspective. >> thank you. >> secretary kerry's testimony begun on the hill, his thinks on iran sanctions coming up next. ♪ [ male announcer ] everyon
not that many foreign leaders spoke, but a tribute to, in the castro case, the fact cuba did support anc and mandela, supported him in jail when ronald reagan did not. how is that viewed behind the scenes? very carefully or something that causes anxiety attacks in the white house and create political problems also? >> given the array of challenges that the president faces on a daily basis, i think this is low down on the anxiety scale. the truth of the matter is, i heard your conversation...
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but like other giants of the anc -- [ cheers ] -- madiba disciplined his anner and chanld hinelled his desire fight in strategies and platforms so men and women could stand up for their god given dignity. moreover he accepted the consequences of his actions. knowing that standing up to powerful interests and injustice carries a price. i fought against white domination and i fought against black domination. i cherish the ideal of a democratic and free society. in which all persons live together in harmony and equal opportunities. it is an ideal which i hope to live for and to achieve, but if an ideal for which i'm prepared to die. [ cheers ] mandela taught us the power of action but also taught us the power of ideas. the importance of reason and arguments. the importance of to only study not only who you agree with but those who you don't degree with. he under stood ideas can't be contained by prison walls or extinguished by a sniper's bullet. he turned his trial into an indictment of apartheid because of his eloquence and passion but because of his training as an advocate. he used deca
but like other giants of the anc -- [ cheers ] -- madiba disciplined his anner and chanld hinelled his desire fight in strategies and platforms so men and women could stand up for their god given dignity. moreover he accepted the consequences of his actions. knowing that standing up to powerful interests and injustice carries a price. i fought against white domination and i fought against black domination. i cherish the ideal of a democratic and free society. in which all persons live together...